Wall Shopping
August 3, 2011 |
27 Comments
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posted by Ana White
Momplex Stats
Money Spent So Far:
$12000 + Cost of Property
Time Spent So Far:
250 Hours of Site + Planning We are wall shopping.
Not shopping for the color of the wall, or the finish on the wall.
No, we are actually shopping for walls themselves.
Last week we built forms for the footers (which the walls will rest on)
And then poured concrete in the forms with rebar uprights placed for tie-in of the walls to the footers.
And then we stripped the forms . . . basically undoing all the work we did in this post.
And now it's time to build walls.
But what type of walls should we build?
There are basically three main types of exterior wall construction that we considered. Stick framing, SIPS and ICFs.
Stick Framing
This is our comfort zone. We've built our garage, cabin and house out of lumber, so stick framing is like an old habit to us.
image from Rafter Tales
Advantages of Stick Framing
- Traditional building method so resources (both labor and materials) are readily available.
- Tried and true - we know how to build with studs, what to expect, and there will be few surprises.
- Flexible - if you change your mind on a window location or decide to add on, traditional stud walls are very forgiving and flexible.
- It's easy to run utilities and plumbing through walls
- The scrap pile - oh yeah! - that's how my Farmhouse Bed came about.
Disadvantages of Stick Framing
- Time consuming - every board has to be cut and nailed in place, board by board.
- You have to insulate and install vapor barrier.
- Could be better insulated (lower energy costs in the long run) methods of building.
- Finishing out has to be "on stud" so increases waste.
Structurally Insulating Panels (SIPS)
Think of SIPS as huge sections of walls already made. As SIP is basically a foam core sandwiched between OSB panels. I love the idea of using the SIPs over a post and beam frame (as shown in image below) but you can also build with just the panels.
image from Buildopedia
Advantages of SIPS
- More energy efficient than stick framing because there's a solid core of foam
- No need for a vapor barrier
- Decreased on site building time (in other words, the house goes up much faster)
- Easy to finish out
- Less waste (panels come precut from factory)
Disadvantages
- Higher building cost
- Requires advanced planning and ordering
- Additional shipping costs
- Not for DIYers . . . you are going to need a crane to set these walls in place.
Insulating Concrete Forms (ICFs)
The best way I can describe ICFs is legos. Basically, you build the exterior of your house out of foam blocks that look like giant legos (but are lightweight enough for me and Grace to handle) that are hollow in the insides. Once your walls are all built, you pour concrete in the hollow centers. This gives you a solid concrete exterior wall, that is insulated on both interior and exterior with foam. The blocks have little black webbing strips that you can screw drywall or siding too. It's really a slick system.
Advantages of ICFs
- Easy to assemble on site by DIYers
- Can be customized easily for any wall shape and size (arches, corners, and even radius walls)
- No vapor barrier or insulating - you stack the blocks, pour the mud, put the roof on and turn the heat on (well, not THAT simple, but you do loose quite a few steps as compared with stick framing)
- Advanced building system that has considered EVERYTHING
- You get a concrete house that is hurricane, tornado and in general highly weather resistant
- It's concrete, so fire also becomes a lesser concern
- Higher R Value and no drafts means lower heating bills
- We've used ICFs before on the crawl space of our home, so have some experience working with this type of exterior wall construction.
- Manufacturer support system and service that you just don't get from a 2x4.
Disadvantages of ICFs
- Lots of preplanning - it's concrete, once you pour, it's literally set in stone.
- Learning curve for DIYers to understand the entire system.
So what is it going to be?
#1 Legos with the Concrete Core
#2 Good Ole Stick Framing
#3 Instawalls
We choose . . . . da da dum . . .
To be continued . . .
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clips
my guess
Number 1!!!! Or 2, but I'm really thinking 1.
Whitney
www.whitneysworkshop.com
posted by whitney_smith | on Wed, 2011-08-03 16:27
Personally....
Personally I would go with the ICFs, option #1.
True, there is a lot more planning, but once you've gotten the plans drawn up (I'm assuming you're using Sketchup or something similar to draw the house first) and the blocks ordered, it should go fairly quickly. Overall you'd spend much less time concerned with good/fair weather conditions and be able to get the house up and the exterior done that much more quickly, hopefully before the weather starts really "turning south" for the winter. Then when the weather does start really getting brutal, you can be inside working in much warmer (or at least more sheltered) conditions.
How do the costs compare? Is
How do the costs compare? Is one much more expensive than the other?
SIPs
I'm a bit biased since I work in the SIPs industry :) - I've been told that SIPs are recognized as being better performers in colder climates, ICF's better in warmer climates. SIPs go up really quick! I built a small structure - 10'x10', with walls and roof, just myself and one other person, for a show in under 4 hours. It's ridiculously simple. But the price does hold people back, it can be a lot more expensive than stick, though the energy savings more than make up for it over the life of the home. I'm sure whichever you choose will work out great!
clips
And the winner is...
I'd totally go with the ICF's. I'd like to knock our place down and build it back up with concrete. We're in a place built in '47, and added on, added on. We've got 3 roof's up there, one extended over the other for each addition. But, it cost's a lot of money to do that, here in Maryland. Live my dream, Ana!
clips
And the winner . . .
That was so, so cruel. lol Tell us!!!
I'm guessing you're choosing ICF's (if it's not too much more expensive than stick).
I'd personally go with SIPs, and am hoping DH and I can do that for the house. (It'll still be at least a year before we can start, so we've got time.) The crazy-high efficiency of SIPs is what wins us over; well, that and the amazing structural strength. We live in an earthquake zone, and while there hasn't been a significant quake for a long, long time, it's still something that we take into consideration. I'm not a fan of any kind of roulette. ;o)
It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory. -- W. Edwards Deming
SIPs....Sips....Sips. And in
SIPs....Sips....Sips. And in just in case I didn't make myself clear....SIPs!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Be careful if you go with
Be careful if you go with SIPS, make sure your pre-planning is spot on! My in-laws used them on their home and actually had to switch to stick framing because the SIPS were not made to the specifications needed. I think they were done before the footings had been put in and just designed as per plans and not real life. Became quite a pain and extended the framing portion of their build an extra 2 months.
ICF
We built our home 3 years ago with lumbar. We insulated with spray in foam in all the walls. We live in Texas so our concern was keeping it cool in the summer. Our house is nice but in my next house I will definitely go the ICF route. The insulating factor thus energy efficiency is well worth the extra cost I think. I hope you do ICF so I can experience the process through your blog. :)
Have you considered stick
Have you considered stick framing, but using a 2x8 top and bottom plate with two 2x4 stud walls on 24" or 32" centers and offsetting the two stud walls 12" or 16", respectively. You'd get the advantages of stick framing, a really strong wall and wind up with close to an R-30 wall since you could eliminate the thermal shorts caused by the studs. If you need more insulation, just use a 2x10 or 2x12 top and bottom plate with the same 2x4 stud walls. If you'd like, I can draw you a sketch...
Thanks for posting your building project!!
my guess
The way you write it, I'm guessing you went with SIPS
Hello you live in Alaska,
Hello you live in Alaska, SIPS! :) Lots of $$ saved in heating costs.
clips
Can't wait to see what you go with!
Whatever you choose, it's obvious you'll know just how to make it work!
Concrete rules!
We live in Alaska too and will be building, but it is concrete foam construction for us all the way. My husband is a structural engineer and sees them, calculation-wise, as far superior in terms of insulate value and seismic performance in a state like ours. Additionally, the ability to easily use in floor heating and cooling systems actually makes them a better deal in climate swings. Their thermal mass and retentive value is much higher for the cost than comparable insulation in panels or stick frame. We will be DIYing it as well.
So for us, at least, the choice is clear. Foam legos and a bunch of pouring makes this Alaskan family super happy :)
foundation walls?
we built a house here in the northeast, and we had to pour a 4ft foundation wall on top of the footers, 4 ft below grade for the freezing, then the stick built walls on TOP of the 4 ft concrete wall was started - do you not have to do that where you are? will you put the walls immediately on the footers?
Thanks for letting us follow along - its so interesting!
I had never heard of ICF's before!
clips
I vote for
#2 - Stick. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't! :D
The road to success is always under construction.
posted by ACraftyCauldron | on Thu, 2011-08-04 08:49
I'm from Germany and we are
I'm from Germany and we are currently building a house with a swedish company, i.e. one of the really nice red wooden houses. In Germany almost everybody builds brick houses but more and more people change to wooden houses. Not only are insulation parameters of wood a lot better, but maybe even more important: The living quality is a lot higher. In a house of wood the air is just a lot better. Living in a house of concrete might be like living in a basement room. The air within concrete normally isn't very good and I don't think that that's what you should go for.
clips
We did ICF
In our basement last week. Put it together was super simple; then we spent another day building braces (though many places rent them) and stuff for the pour. And it's a one day pour. I don't see how ICFs would be any less energy efficient than SIPs, and they're probably more economical (cost us about $6K for 32 X 56 with 8 foot walls, and we had about 19 blocks @$16/block + plus many halves leftover) than SIPs. And then concrete was another $6 or so. And we were all rookies with the pour (and we didn't use the recommended pump truck), so it was not perfectly flawless, but great to know it was done at the end of the day (uh, except for all the cleanup I'm still doing!). Brace your windows well to avoid blowouts if you go with this option! Or seeping up under the windowsill from the adjacent wall you're filling. We also ran hose for radiant floor heat. Cost us $600 with the foam and tubing.
posted by dakotatransplant | on Thu, 2011-08-04 09:59
#2
Maybe because I change my mind frequently, but I would go with the stick building. If the old owners of my house would have used something permanent, I wouldn't have bought the house. Most of the windows in my house were an after-thought. Most of the doors were placed wherever on a wall. They didn't plan well enough for lay-out and asthetics. Now, I know you and your husband have enough experience where you won't make these mistakes, but also: every homeowner is different. The remodeling that I do may not be someone else's taste.
I like the flexibility of #2, hands down!
ICF Fan
I have to vote for ICFs. We built our home here in NC with ICFs The energy savings are significant, comfort level is awesome and the thick exterior walls have made for some great deep windowsills. The peace of mind we have when it comes to stormy weather is also nice as we have nestled the house in the woods. Even when the power goes out for several hours the house stays a stable comfortable temperature.
If you choose ICFs, do NOT skip the vibrating of the concrete during the pour or you will end up with voids and pockets(I saw you were smart enough to do this with your footers)It seems like a no-brainer to me, but we were not here to supervise our hired "experienced" supervisor and he took some seriously stupid short cuts. Now if I can't DIY, I just don't! If we ever have to build again, we will still use ICFs, we will just build smaller so we can do it all ourselves.
ICF guts
I like the ICF option, but I'm curious about how you run electric and plumbing with that.
I guess you put everything in place before you pour, but what happens 10 or 15 years down the road when there's a problem with a wire or pipe or something else in the wall?
Plumbing and electrical are
Plumbing and electrical are cut into the foam or run inside of the interior foam wall, not in the cement of the wall itself.
ICF
My husband and I built our home 5 years ago...neither one us are even close to being a contractor or into construction. But we built our entire house...with exception of dry walling.
ICF are EASY! I can't say it enough, totally easy. It will cost a little more upfront but will save TONS in heating and cooling later on. Ours is PCF up to the roof line (basement, first floor and half).
We would be glad to share our experience and it was totally learning on the fly and DIY.
Michelle
mtaylor@ucmo.edu
We used SIPs to build our
We used SIPs to build our home. And we built ourselves, just had a crew of helpers to put all the pieces together. Our 1st and 2nd story were made seperately, even our vaulted entry was done with two pieces, so none of the pieces were more than 9' tall.
good luck with your choice!
Jen
ICF
We have and ICF basement in our new home in Saskatchewan and I still wish the whole house would have been done that way like my uncle did. He also has Geothermal and the heat /cooling costs are nil but the house holds the heat / cool amazingly. The one consideration is all your doors / windows will be special order for the extra thick casings but well worth it.
Our basement is extremely warm (R40 without any finishing) even in the extreme cold (-40C days). I cannot wait until it is completely done, it will be toasty and efficient.
ICFs are great for Alaska
We live in Alaska too (on the Kenai Peninsula). My husband is a carpenter, and when we build our dream home we will use ICF's.
Some of our friends that live here built their home out of ICFs. He is not a carpenter/contractor, but their place looks great!
They are over all easy to use and incredibly energy efficient. An added bonus to me is the fact that you have super wide window sills!
clips
Ahhh, memories!
Looking at pictures of your building site takes me back to my teenage years. Particularly the pics of the poured footings. When my family was building, I was walking around the footings, tripped and fell, and got a nasty gash on my wrist from the rebar. Our place in the mountains was an hour from town, so no hospital; just a mean scrubbing with dawn dish soap and some butterfly band-aids. I've got a gnarly scar which has made for some great stories... A knife fight, failed suicide attempt; you know, fun things to freak people out.
posted by birdsandsoap | on Mon, 2011-08-15 14:27
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