So this is more directed to Ana, but maybe some others have noticed this as well. Heck, maybe some people here are already doing this! But, I want to know how you (Ana) feel about this...
So I came across this website etsy.com. I guess people build/make things and sell them there. I found the Farmhouse bed in a few forms, but at least one is 100% identical to the 'Ana White' design. People are selling for $500 with various customization options. I love the idea, but, at the same time, it feels 'wrong' to do it.
How do you feel, Ana, about people building and selling your designs?
I have a few family members, friends and neighbors who have seen the 2 things I built thus far and they ask if I can make them one... I can see how one could make this a business...
suzieandjesse
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 04:12
Interesting question and well-worth some good discussion, Jon. Can't wait to hear what Ana thinks of this.
I've told some colleagues about what my wife and I have done so far, and I already have "orders" for a couple of small pieces. I never thought about charging them for it though – just the cost of the materials. I can see how it'd make a good side-business however! Not that I'd have the time/space to dedicate to that kind of operation!
EDIT: Just was looking at one of the plans, and saw/remembered that she DOES have a disclaimer at the bottom of all plans:
So I think that's a pretty clear-cut answer right there. Is there a "report" feature for etsy?
st1
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 04:29
Good find! I didn't see that so far, but that's pretty clear to me. I'm going to look onto etsy.com for that. Maybe Ana has granted the license already though? for a small cut of the business :P
Carrie and 3Chicks
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 05:01
I'm interested too. I just finished building two things for a friend. She loves Ana's work, browses the site but doesn't build. She is paying me to build them for her. Another friend commented that I have a "God given talent that could make me some money."
I am in the process of divorce, not getting enough to support myself and 3 girls. I'd love to keep doing this and get paid to build and I want to give Ana all the credit. Without her, I wouldn't be doing this at all. I have been a builder my whole life and made a bed, play set, kitchen island etc a long time ago but lost it serving a very needy husband. Now that I'm free of him, I just love getting back into the building business.
Ana- We need your input! You are the Queen of this Kingdom so let us serfs know what we can and can't do!
Carrie
Heather
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 05:42
I sell on etsy and this is a topic that comes up a lot (not only there but other places where I have sold). This was the example given to me when I asked on another forum about this exact subject - Take a clothing pattern as an example. You are not allowed to reproduce that pattern and sell it. However, you are allowed to use that pattern to make a shirt and sell the shirt. I'm imagining that the same would hold true for the plans here. Sad but possibly true. And yes, it does feel wrong.
anawhite (not verified)
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:22
So I am totally torn when I read about these sort of things. I feel for the people just trying to make a little extra money. But at the same time, I feel for my family, who has sacrificed all of my free time over the past year to make this work. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do ask that you do not sell my exact copyrighted work :( And appreciate those of you who are honest and make decisions based on good morals. Thank you.
Dynamic Duo said:
anawhite (not verified)
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:25
Heather said:
Sign, everyone just wants to get ahead and I can't blame them. I guess the only way to get around this is get the word out to the point where everyone knows how to build for themselves :)
anawhite (not verified)
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:30
Carrie, you build at the point where you could sell things! And I did NOT create the barn bookshelf! YOU did! There is nothing stopping you from selling proudly your own work. Also, plenty of people are willing to pay someone to build their furniture for them from my site. What about advertising your services? Or creating a paint your own furniture store, where you build, and people come and paint their own? Or how about creating a workshop where you supply the space and the tools in your home for an hourly fee? I am all for people making extra money and doing what they love, and there are ways to do this and still be a big part of our community.
Carrie and 3Chicks said:
anawhite (not verified)
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:31
Jon said:
Not that I know of . . .
suzieandjesse
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:50
Thanks for weighing in on your opinion of all this, Ana. Such a hard topic to work through.
Personally, I plan on building things for people just because I love doing this! The only thing I'd accept as payment would be the cost of the materials.
st1
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 08:50
Ana White said:
You could start the amway of furniture.. a giant pyramid of builders
anawhite (not verified)
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 09:11
LOL @ Jon and the Pyramid!
You know, the truth is, my family and I are very happy and have no desire to live elaborate lives or be rich or anything like that. We are very simple people. What I really take from all this is a hope that other people are finding the same simple happiness that we have found. The sense of accomplishment that comes from building something is amazing. And by selling instead of promoting this idea, well, it takes that opportunity away from an innocent customer. And imagine how they are going to feel when they find out that they could have built it themselves.
While I understand and support the idea of people making extra money, happiness not money is the main goal :)
suzieandjesse
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 09:43
Great philosophy, Ana. I know I've talked everyone's ear off about your site ever since the first time I used it a week or two ago. Free advertising - woohoo!
suzieandjesse
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 11:35
Sorry for the double-post, but I've been thinking on this all afternoon. I think the etsy person and just someone charging for doing the work might be two different things... Here's how I would kind of separate the two.
- The person selling the bed on etsy is not doing anything to give Ana credit for the design. Yes, he or she built the bed, paid for the materials, etc, but the design itself is intellectual property of Ana, and he/she infringes on that right by not giving Ana any credit.
- If I were to let a bunch of people know about Ana's site (which I'm doing now) and someone asks me if they could pay me to make something for any number of reasons (no tools, no space to build, no skills, etc), is it bad to charge for the build time on top of materials, so long as everything originated here at ana-white.com? I'm not talking hourly rates or anything, just something on top of the wood cost to make it worth giving my saturday up and not building something for my wife and me!
So the difference in my mind here is that the first case is just someone trying to pass something off as theirs in a marketplace transaction, while in the second case I'd just be asking for some compensation for my time (typically to someone I know), but the heart of the idea is the discovery and usage of Ana's site.
Ana, I'd love to hear your further thoughts on this.
anawhite (not verified)
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 12:29
DD - I agree, there are two different cases here, those that build and give the impression that it is their design, and those that build and ask for money for their time and work (or however they charge for their services). I don't think those that fall into the first category have a long term business going - poor customers are going to feel cheated when they find out they were never given the opportunity to build for themselves. As far as the second category goes, my main concern is liability. So I ask, please, if you are building for resale, be inspired by my work, but make the designs you sell your own. And don't let business prospects get in the way of enjoying life and building for yourself :) Thank you all for taking your time to ask.
Carrie and 3Chicks
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 13:20
Ana-
Thank you so much for the complement! So far when friends have shown interest I have given them your site url and told them I can do anything you design. My friend who I built the doll house and the barn bookcases does CAD, so she changed the roof line and the door. I asked her if she'd be my CAD Chick of someone else needs changes and she agrees it would be a good partnership.
I love the ideas you suggested! I am investigating advertising, and that's why I wanted to talk to you directly. What about my business cards with your site listed too? My site with my already built furniture. I'd be willing to contribute to your site in any way helpful.
If you have a chance in your busy, busy world, you can email me.
Carrie
Ana White said:
Carrie and 3Chicks
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 13:33
Oh Ya, I forgot to mention. I was only asked to build stuff for a price after friends saw the stuff I was building from your designs to refurnish my house after my almost- XMan moved out with half the furniture! Lol!
Carrie
leigh7911
Thu, 09/02/2010 - 19:14
Heather said:
Actually, I am under the impression that this is very much NOT the case. I sew (or would, if I could ever finished organizing my sewing room!), and the vast majority of the tutorials and patterns I see posted - be they free or for sale - have a disclaimer that they're for personal use only. A very few give free reign, they don't care if you sell stuff made from their patterns. A few others give limited reign - you can sell on a small scale (say a craft fair) or sell stuff to benefit charity. Just looked on the back of a commerical pattern (Simplicity) and it says "To be used for individual private home use only and not for commercial or manufacturing purposes." I can get inspiration and ideas from a button-down shirt pattern, but if I want to sell any shirts, I'm to draft my own gosh darn pattern! :)
That said, you can only reinvent the wheel so many times, you know? A bookcase is a bookcase is a bookcase. But there's no reason any bookcase I build for sale (yeah right - I don't have the time or money to do it for myself!) has to be the exact same dimensions or trimmed out the exact same way as Ana's plans call for. And the more intricate stuff has a LOT of wiggle room for modification - as a quick perusal of the photo gallery shows!
Heather
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 03:00
I didn't want to go into detail as this involves someone else but the fact is, you can sew from a Simplicty pattern and sell the goods. There was a suit filed and this was the outcome. I still don't agree with it.
leigh7911 said:
leigh7911
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 09:15
Heather said:
Well huh. I obviously did not realize that. And I don't agree with it either.
flippin1999
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 10:49
I, too, am torn on this. I am of the mind that 'time is money,' and Ana has spent COUNTLESS hours creating these projects. Answering our questions. Blogging about her life. Giving away her gift. And while I have nothing but complete admiration for her devotion, I am also in complete disbelief that she asks for nothing in return.
I tell at LEAST one person a day about KOW, and while I am lucky enough to have rental units that need furniture (therefore an endless supply of places that need Ana's plans,) I gift $10 for each plan that I COMPLETE to Ana's funds. She's had to hire babysitters, attorneys, and probably editors, etc... for her upcoming book. (Yay!) I can't even fathom what Ana has given us.
And some have the gall to pass it off as theirs? Yes, there is 'talent' time, and material cost involved in every piece we make. But if it's so difficult to make that folks can't 'do it themselves,' why be afraid to paste Ana's name all over the stuff? I'd have no problem (were I to want to sell) in handing out one of Ana's cards with every piece. Showing them the plans she made. Giving them the website address. But charging people money for the furniture (that she freely provided the plans for) because we can't /aren't willing to spend the money on it ourselves goes against everything that KOW represents. I spread the word with the hopes that each person I tell will buy her upcoming book. She's earned it!
Just my humble opinion. I feel that Ana has taught me so much, that I am now beginning to look at things I like and entertain the idea of making it without a step-by-step plan. And that is a gift that can't be repaid. <3 to Ana!
borrowedabode
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 11:50
I was worried people might start building from Ana's plans for profit. (Carrie, I have read what you've written and am NOT directing this at you!)
It worries me to think of people taking advantage of her hard work.
Ana, have you considered offering that if a person wanted to reproduce a piece for profit, they could a fee of some sort for limited rights to use your plans? I have NO idea what the legal ramifications would be, or how you would get that done, but I'm sure your lawyer could advise you. Just a thought!
borrowedabode
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 11:52
I totally love Flippin1999's idea about gifting to Ana each time a plan is completed!
flippin1999 said:
zoebird
Fri, 09/03/2010 - 19:34
i think there's a big difference, too, in work between friends and "for profit enterprise." it's one thing to hang a shingle using someone's plans; it's another thing to help out a friend who is going through a tough time by asking them to use their skills to facilitate your building or what have you, kwim? i have a problem with the first, but not with the second.
so for me, it crosses the line when someone is doing it in a "professional" (etsy-esque) way, but prior to that, as a favor among friends that might come with some added cash (beyond costs) or a cake or roasted chicken, well, i see no harm in that per se.
virg
Sat, 09/04/2010 - 14:01
I've been asked to build things for friends and family. So far I have only provided items as gifts (Bday present and wedding present). I have started to work on my own plans and one day hope to provide furniture to those that are willing to pay me. But I'm a long way off.
I think, being compensated for your time is one thing, but taking credit for a design that isn't yours is completely different.
That being said, a few friends of mine, that want to get their hands dirty, but lack the tools/confidence, have started requesting a "date-to-build" session, where they buy the materials and we prep/assemble/stain it together! And I cannot wait to get started!
ferbit
Sat, 09/04/2010 - 15:31
I love Flippin1999's idea too! :) Just gave her post a thumbs up!
flippin1999 said:
erinslape
Sat, 09/04/2010 - 18:40
I too have no problem telling people about Ana and her site. I am often on other boards and see postings about how to get things at PB cheaper and I am the first...ok sometimes the second to mention KOW. And I get so sad when I see replies like " I wish I had a handy husband who could build..." and things along those lines. It's amazing to me that people won't even try for themselves.
I have sold a piece or two of furniture that I have built from KOW wood plans as requests from friends, but I never pass off the designs as my own. I have just charged for the materials and my time and nothing more. I literally keep a log of time I spend on the project and multiply that by a reasonable hourly wage and add the material cost and that is what I sold it for.Some people want what they want and are not willing to spend time themselves building it, but both times I sold an item I told both of them that they could easily build it themselves and they just weren't interested in trying. I agree with Ana that money is not the object but if I said I didn't want to be rich I would be a liar, lol. But to me being rich is not an amount of money but the freedom to do what I want with my time that makes me happy.
So for instance I guess where this is headed is this question: I work full time like most people but I also need to find ways to keep active and try to be healthier (exercise) as well as find time for a part time job so that I can tackle my student debt from college and finally be FREE so that requires me to get a part time job and I feel a need to be creative. So if I were to combine all of these things with the help of Ana's awesome teachings and plans is it wrong?? If I can build to be active and keep track of my time to provide extra needed income and paint fun colors or designs to be creative and still credit it as an Ana White design is that ok?
anawhite (not verified)
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 12:58
Erin, you are amazing, and I definitely agree, why wouldn't you supplement your income by doing a healthy hobby that you love? It's websites like the one that even copied my bio and was using YOUR photos to sell our furniture that cross the line! Thanks for being honest and supporting our site. I've seen some of your comments on forums, and I am very appreciative.
anawhite (not verified)
Mon, 09/06/2010 - 13:01
flippin1999 said:
Despite what we read and what comes in the news, people are good at heart. I am always amazed to see a donation from you, always grateful, and I always appreciate your kindness. Thanks for taking your time to post! <3
dananryan
Tue, 09/07/2010 - 04:07
flippin1999 said:
How do you gift to Ana's funds now that the "coffee" button is gone? I've been unable to figure it out...
flippin1999
Tue, 09/07/2010 - 09:45
It's super easy to go to paypal.com, choose 'send money,' and type in a donation amount as a personal gift to [email protected]. (the name comes up as asenathwhite, but it's all Ana.) If I donated for every project I loved, printed, and drooled over, I'd be in the poorhouse.
But I just think that if it's possible, a showing a little love with a monetary donation for a plan that Ana designed and I put together is a nice gesture of appreciation.
I hope it doesn't offend Ana that I put this out there- like I said, it's just my opinon and my way of thanking her- so I hope no one takes offense or thinks that they absolutely have to do the same. But if she logged how many hours she put into this endeavor and charged an hourly wage for her time to give us these plans, we'd all be buying her lots of coffee! LOL!
Now....Off to work on "Michaela's kitchen island!" ;-)
dananryan
Tue, 09/07/2010 - 13:31
flippin1999 said:
I agree with you 100%! Thanks for the info. I will do the same as soon as I get my first project done.
bcubed
Thu, 09/30/2010 - 08:11
OK, here is my thoughts on this subject.
I started weaving baskets a few years ago, starting by taking classes with my late mother, at the local county park system up in Ohio. The teacher there was a wonderful woman who used patterns that she purchased from other weavers who designed the baskets and sold the patterns. All us students that came for lessons for a particular basket paid a fee that covered the basket materials, a handle if it came with one, AND the pattern.
When I started buying up patterns for my own, 1 - the pattern is copywrited, and 2 - there is always a disclaimer on each pattern that the pattern is for personal use only, not for resale (the pattern, not the basket from the pattern). And also, conciencious weavers that sell completed baskets at craft shows and etc, sometimes woulld say, this basket is made from So and So's pattern, or this basket is my design, or this basket is my INTERPRETATION of So and SO's basket pattern, etc.
There will always be people that will be dishonest and steal things from honest people. There really is not all that much that can be done about that or them. One can only hope that the larger majority of the population of people that visit here will be honest and give credit where credit is due and do right by all Ana's hard work.
As a person that is in the middle of building our own house and trying to make furniture to fill it, I am FULLY aware of how much work Ana has put into not only the plans for the furniture, but into bringing her designs to people to use them and enjoy them. I get equally upset when people are out there literally stealing someone's hard work and soul. But... short of hunting people down and prosecuting them, what really can be done. Those people will get their just rewards in the end. It takes all kinds to make this world turn. We can only hope and pray that the good outweigh the bad.
I have also had people ask me to make some things for them. People LOVE my convertible picnic table. Its not MINE really.. I got the plans free off the net. And I have seen other people post their pictures of that same picnic table both as a table and as the 2 benches that it turns into. I have not made one of the tables for anyone yet. Dont have time really. But if I am asked again, do I make it and charge $ for a profit? Good question....
That is probably why people SELL their patterns, not give them away. That way the authors of the plans are protected from the thieves that reside in the general population. A few bad people usually ruin good things for everybody.
Hang in there Ana and do whatever is right for you.
Thus is the price of fame....